Hi,

Firstly, apologies for tarnishing these forums with a bridge related question!

I've been working on an U20 system file and 'borrowing' sections from various sources. Can someone explain the reasoning behind the following, as I don't understand it:

(Playing 4 card majors and a weak NT)

-> with a 4-3-4-2 distribution, open the lower suit.

-> with a 3-4-4-2 touching distribution, open the higher suit. The exception is when your holding are Hearts and Spades as in the distribution of 4-4-2-3, and the general rule is to open 1 Heart.

Why the distinction when suits are touching and not touching? What would the drawback be of making it so that the lower suit is always opened? (as I think this is easier to teach/remember)

They play negative doubles if that makes a difference.

I'm maybe missing something really obvious - it's been a long time since I played Acol and 4 card majors.

there seems to be three major suit openings
fives, fours and baby fives!

If you play four card majors, design any raises based on having to have four card support, but then dont open a four card major because you have a four card minor. Won't it leave you searching for a major fit you should have already found?

Andrew Robson (and his book that was given out at the Frischmann) says to only open the lower 4 card suit with 4h/4s otherwise the higher.

With four card majors they are very useful at getting any major suit fit found and bid,opening a lower suit lets oppo get in with the other major and perhaps preempt you out.


------
Opening the lower of non touching and higher of touching(h/s not)
This is probably based on not playing chechback/new minor force and so they are rebidding the major rather than rebidding NT.
With touching suits, if you open the higher u find your major fit while opennidn the lower would just allow p(the weaker, as u are 15+) to declare.

Any ideas on 44444444?

Cheers Myles,

Andrew Robson's advice seems to make slightly more sense to me:

4H + 4S -> open 1H
4H + 4m -> open 1H
4S + 4m -> open 1S
4C + 4D -> open 1D(?)

As you say, this makes sure you always get your major in before the opponents can pre-empt you out of the fit. If you are playing negative doubles and checkback, there isn't a problem opening the lowest suit until the opponents pre-empt. Of course, pre-empts are frequent in junior bridge, so it's not a good approach.

I just can't understand the logic behind the touching / non-touching stuff I quoted and thought I must be missing something. (http://www.bridgeguys.com/ACOL/AcolGeneral.html)

What's 'baby fives' out of interest?

i thought the logic with the non touching stuff was to rebid the major, bcoz partner would bid the intervening suit.. i dunno, it does seem whack

Yeah, thats what Mr Robson says


I made up Baby fives but its just this rubbish if playing 4 card majors but then not opening 1M when u can by opening the minor. It just makes playing 4's rubbish as u now only open 1M when u are 5+(so playing fives) or 44 in the M or 4333 which isnt enough to make up for the problem of needing 4card support
indeed opening 1d with 4d and 4s is the exact opposite of canope

I think the logic behind it is as follows.

Most people play 5cM.
When they open a major and you would open a major they have an advantage on you as their hand is better defined.
Therefore you need to be opening majors on hands when they are not to get back that advantage, such as a 4324 shape. This is the system the Hacketts play.
However I would teach them to just open the lower suit as it is far easier to remember and teach will rarely make a difference and will almost allways make uncontested auctions easier.

Hope this clarifys things a bit.

Hi Frazer,

I get the bit about 5 card major players having an advantage over 4 card major players when they open 1H or 1S. I don't really understand the second bit - can you clarify?

That was my original thinking but Myles' point is valid that they could very easily be pre-empted out of finding their major fit.

I'm not sure what to go with now, other than I think the Hacketts' method will be to confusing for them. Does anyone have a copy of the standard SBU system as I may as well make it consistent with that?

I miss 5 card majors

Wow, I dont come on for one day in about 20 and a massive discussion takes place behind my back!


I think the easiest thing to do is to teach checkback. It is a very simple system and the first thing my dad taught me -all we played was weak NT, stayman and checkback. ALWAYS open the lower of two four card suits.

The main reason Sandra Landy (the inventor of standard english) gives for opening the higher of 1 four card major suit, and one four card minor suit, is that it gets lost in the bidding. Not only do I not agree this is a serious problem, but it also causes confusion and bad habits in beginners that it is religiously taught to.

So, basically I would teach weak NT, Stayman, Checkback and always open the lower of two four card suits. No transfers (beginners dont really understand the proper use of them), blackwood (it will be constantly used for the next six months afterwards, it is better to sacrifice the odd slam bid without an A for the advantages of better bidding judgement) and no count (beginners will start religiously giving it, same sometimes with attitude).

Essentially teach them how to play real bridge and keep them away from as many conventions as possible.

There is also some truth in what Frazer says, however I think the Hackets are somewhat handing the advantage back to the 5 card major holders. It is much easier to define a 4324 hand than one that opens a 5 card major. I am not sure how opening this hand 1S makes it and easier for the Hackets to define this specific style of hand because it would require alot of bids further to define exactly that shape and deny other shapes that would open a 1S naturally anyway. I think the Hackets have a massive disadvantage opening this hand 1S.

basically most of us just want to play 5's

but if u are playing four card majors u need to actually open 4 card majors..

well well well.
Firstly,playing weak nt 4 card majors... 1S is always 5 except when strong ie 15+( think about it) I always open lower of touching suits as I use dbles to advantage..(think about it|) guess what..when I open 1C..I have them...not just a random 13 cards as I am also shapey or strong! opening 1Nt within range with ANY 5332 should also be encouraged..as should weak 2s as standard! why oh why do we aklert them?
Keeping a system simle and trying to teach hand evaluation...I refer you to acouple of articles in this months SBU news, is MUCH more beneficial..godd luck to all